I thought it was perfect. There's so much to talk about, but I'll wait until Monday for most of it.
So many cool little touches, like The Chief settling in the Northern Highlands... maybe Ireland. Are the Gaelic people descendants of Galen? Nice touch.
I'm satisfied with the "sort of" explanation of what happened to Starbuck and where did the visions come from. It's probably better we were told about it, rather than having God show up. That never works out well in Sci-Fi (see Star Trek 5).
When I heard that Galactica was going to find Earth (last season), I said it had to be handled one of two ways... either earth is destroyed, or they land during primitive times. They did both. Awesome.
I agree. It was a tremendous finale. I have to watch it again (-ahem- sober) to wrap my head around it properly.
Like I said previously, I was more concerned with getting a conclusion to all the character arcs than getting answers to all the lingering questions, so in that regard I was totally satisfied. GREAT end for Chief Tyroll!
I always said they were going to end up on our earth, I just wasn't sure if it would be the past or the present when they showed up. But I have to admit by "past" I had a semi-civilized pre-Greek post-Samaria time period in mind.
But there is something bothering me: I'd rather they aired the "The Plan" movie during the season than next fall. It's my understanding that it's all been shot already, so why wait to put it on tv? Even knowing it's just a rehashing of previously viewed events from the Cylon perspective, I wish the finale was actually the final time I'd see ANY of those characters. I guess the blame should go to SciFi (sigh..."SyFy") for milking it.
Caprica looks interesting, but I don't know if it will ever outgrow BSG's shadow without BSG's "once more into the breach" approach to violent showdowns.
THAT WAS FRAKING AWESOME!!! I LOVED IT!!! That was an awesome ending and even though I know not all answers were made clear, I still am happy with how this show ended. Sad to see many die like Racetrack & Skulls, Tory, Anders & Roslin but I'm glad Helo didn't die. So much to say and praises to say so here's a quick breakdown:
I loved how they used the older centurions, it made it easier to see the rebel centurions and those of the colony when fighting was taking place.
Admiral Hoshi?! I loved that. In Part 1 last week, Hoshi was cleaning up some coffee off the CIC map table and Col. Tigh says to him, "You'll never make Admiral that way." Nice touch. And Romo as President, a great way to get him back into the storyline.
I loved Galactica ramming into the colony...and I guessed right last week when I said that they will probably jump Galactica while inside the colony.
I'm glad Galactica didn't die during the destruction of the colony. It and Anders died an honorable death...and what a great way for the colony to die...dead Racetrack's Raptor gets hit by a meteor rock and her dead hand falls on her fire button, launching all the nukes she had Skulls arm during the battle.
I loved during the gun fight in the CIC when Cavil knew all was lost, he blew a hole in his head by sticking the gun in his mouth and pulling the trigger.
Athena killing Boomer, Cavil blowing his head off, Adama shooting and kicking over a bloodied Simon in the CIC (in slow motion)... really dark.
I loved the special effects of this episode, actually this whole season had great SFX.
I loved how they tied the earlier scenes of the opera house with Baltar, Caprica Six & Hera and made it out to be the CIC on Galactica, showing the five up above.
I loved how they ended all of the storylines of each of the main characters and now I see how those flashbacks from last week that I complained about, tie everything together.
I'm glad Baltar stayed with the Galactica for the final battle.
I new Boomer would come through, Ron Moore said she would have a big impact in an interview he did at the start of the season. Plus you could see that she grew attached to Hera after realizing that Hera could see the projection of the house Boomer likes to visit when she feels depressed.
And Ron Moore! Did you catch his cameo role as the guy in present day Earth at the newspaper stand reading about the finding of Hera's bones?
WHAT A STORY!!! So the notes of the song were the coordinates of pre-historic Earth. Baltar's speech to Cavil about God, that he sees angels and how a higher power is guiding all of what has been going on all along, was great! So the story seems to be that God has brought them all to pre-historic Earth to settle there and to start over. Sort of fits into the history of how early man would draw about winged gods from the skies on the walls of the pyramids. Gods that were more advanced then them. Lee says to his father that they could bring language and knowledge to the pre-historic humans, while walking along that river on Earth. I didn't think they were going to reveal who God was or how he brought Kara back from the dead. There was no need for that explanation. Like Baltar said to Cavil, God isn't on anyone's side... God is a force of nature.
"You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end." Obviously it was not the end of the humans but that of Cavil and his cylons, just what Adam predicted last week. And I LOVED how they ended her scene with Lee. Just like an angel and it's obvious she was a good angel, just like head-Six and head-Baltar.
I'M REALLY HAPPY AT HOW THIS SHOW ENDED AND I LOOK FORWARD TO "THE PLAN". It really doesn't matter that not all questions were answered. Even "The Plan" may not answer all the remaining questions but I'm sure it will be another masterful writing and producing work of Ron Moore and David Eick. BRAVO!!!
I have mixed feelings about the end. Mostly just minor criticisms. I'm satisfied even though it almost just leaves Kara and her viper as magical, but I can overlook it. The deception of them not getting to Earth and then getting to our Earth for the finale was brilliant. I like how this implies we are descendants of both cylon and human dna as Hera proves to be the missing link.
I like how all the characters on BSG were wrapped up and hopefully "the plan" will wrap up more of the characters on the cylon perspective. I wanted Leoban to have a final story arc, but he sort of just dropped off the wayside.
Much of the Opera House didn't make much sense to me. Why do we even need to have Roslin or Athena chase after Hera when they ultimately have no role in the "Opera House" scene. Why were they even filled with such a sense of dread over 6 and Baltar taking the child, if "god" needed this to happen for their future? I feel like it was jammed in there just to have closure on the Opera House prophecy, but it didn't add anything for me.
Lee and the pigeon also made no sense to me. He's always been ambitious, so to see him just walk away from it, seems odd. He was making decisions up to the end for humankind, I felt he would feel responsible for leading them in the new world rather then to be come a nomad and leave everything to Romo.
I'm ok with how they left the 6 and Baltar angels. We can barely understand the concept of angels and god in real life, we can't expect Ron Moore to give us any concrete answers, though I was disappointed that he leaves Baltar Angel refering to "God" as he doesn't like to be named as a "he". Just a patriarchial note that wasn't necessary on such a revolutionary non-patriarchial show.
Kara coming back from the dead in a brand new viper was obviously orchestrated by God and hence doesn't require any further explanation. Baltar said it many times to his following, the head-Six angel said it to Baltar several times throughout the series and even in our own societies religion it is taught that God cannot be explained or fully understood. You just have to believe that God exists... that's how faith is explained. Like Baltar said to Cavil in the CIC, "you have to take a leap in faith".
I agree that it would have been cool to see a conclusion of Leoben's story arc but I'm sure most of the cylon story arcs will take place in "The Plan".
Lee and the pigeon symbolized the ending of his relationship with Kara. She disappears as he is saying what he wants to do with his life, since her journey was complete, her destiny fulfilled, she left. So I see the pigeon scene as Kara being around and then leaving Lee's life as she flies out the door.
I think Lee not leading the people was a good thing. He needed to start over, "a clean slate" like Adama said. After all the people are so spread out all over the planet that it would be impossible to have a governing body, so I doubt that the office of the President was a functioning entity.
Not everyone will agree but I felt that everything that needed an explanation (except for the cylon story arc) was justifiably done. "SO SAY WE ALL".
< though I was disappointed that he leaves Baltar Angel refering to "God" as he doesn't like to be named as a "he" >
Actually, after rewatching it I'm pretty sure the line is more like "you know it doesn't like that name." So whomever "it" is doesn't like to be called "god."
Anyway, here's a comment I've stolen from another forum that sums up a lot of the prevailing interpretations...
< The reference to "It Doesn't like that name" is referring to Satan. Note the colors that Six and Baltar In Heads are wearing. Black and red, colors that represent darkness and hell. Demons, a.k.a. angels of SATAN, usually temp a singular person in the history of demonology. Angels, represented in the bible, usually appear before many. That might be stretching it a bit. BUT, regardless, if you read in between the lines and look for the clues, they represent demons of Satan. Satan fucks with man's free will. Thus, he always manages to prove that humans are a faulty creation. Satan and his followers in heaven (He was previously Lucifer, second to the throne of God) didn't take to God's love for humans…Kara was an angel sent down to tip the scales a bit because in the end, according to the bible, God always prevails. >
The thing is, the concepts of Satan and Jesus and angels and the trinity and all that fun Judaic-Christian mythology is plagiarized from ancient pagan belief systems, ancient Egyptian religion, and the Epic of Gilgamesh.
So while I get how, say, a Catholic would come away from this finale with a "god's devine plan" theological interpretation,I think it's important to explore the finale's ambiguity.
When the fleet arrives on our Earth, the natives don't even have spoken language yet. Surely these natives may view these newly arrived humans and skinjobs as gods or godlike beings, especially once agriculture, language, law, etc is introduced. Few natives will ever be able to wrap their brains around the idea that these apparent gods are just normal (though comparatively evolved) humans.
Likewise, members of the fleet who have felt the influence of an apparent god would never be able to wrap their brains around a similar idea if their "one true god" were to reveal him or her self as just a human with 150K+ years worth of evolution over the fleet humans.
So while the finale is definitive with regards to saying that there is SOMETHING or SOMEONE manipulating events, it leaves the door open for both an atheistic interpretation and a theological interpretation. The who or what is left up to the viewer. Is it "god", is it an evolved human or hybrid, or is it a machine or computer?
Is the fleet arriving in spaceships any more or less miraculous from the perspective of the natives than Kara Thrace's resurrection is from the perspective of the fleet?
Was the Kara that arrived at the end of season 3 truly an angel, or is "angel" just a concept that the fleet humans employ to quantify something they could not otherwise understand.
There's no correct answer to these questions, but each viewer is free draw their own conclusions. And that's why, aside from one of the finest scifi battles I've ever witnessed, this is one of the best series finales we'll ever see.
Seriously, though... a space battle in an asteroid field spinning into a black hole? That is unbelievable science fiction gravitas.
And, on a personal note, I hated the swift truce that was reached in CIC between Cavil and the fleet. So when it was suddenly shattered by my favorite character snapping the neck of my least favorite character? Perfection.
Shunanimous... That last post was right on the money. Yes many answers to the questions will be different based on peoples beliefs. It doesn't matter if ones interpretation of some of the questions are not the same as others. That's the beauty of this show... draw your own conclusions.
I'm guilty of forgetting a lot of the mythology that was laid out over the 4 years. According to a lot of people, Moore and Co. didn't do a good job with continuity. Here's a rather long post by a fan that isn't very complimentary. I have to say that after reading this, I'm a little dissapointed that they didn't do a better job with the explanations. This guy's name is Jeff. Tell me what you think.
(BEGIN JEFF)
I could not have been more disappointed with the cowardly ambiguity of this finale. You built Kara up to be something, but without even your own idea as to what. That’s not writing. That’s daydreaming. You built Hera up to be something, but she turned out to be nothing more than a little girl. She affected nothing. You turned Adama into a simpering goat, who dealt with death on a daily basis but abandoned his son and everyone else because Rosslyn was dying. Apollo had lost a wife. Kara had lost a husband. Adama can’t suck it up and accept death? Hard to take.
The head six and head Baltar were “angels” all along. No scientific explanation even attempted. Not for them. Not for Kara. Not for everyone’s various visions. All the work of some higher power. All along, we’re watching a show about a chaotic God who sometimes wants to do good, sometimes wants to do evil, and only plays with a few selected characters. No further explanation given. There’s a fine line between clever and stupid, but this is just disrespectful to your fans.
You abandoned your prophecies - the dying leader DID live to see the new world. Kara Thrace was NOT the harbinger of anyone’s death.
And her body was found on the old dead Earth. Yet the song led her to the new Earth. Yet the Viper was built to go to the old Earth. Yet the planet you showed when she returned was the new Earth. All it means is that you didn’t know what the heck you were doing. It meant nothing.
The song woke up the cylons, but she heard it too. Her father taught it to her. And you can say it was a “music is universal” meme, but that’s garbage. THAT song was the coordinates to Earth. Hera drew it. Kara typed it. But if it was God, why did it wake up the Cylons? Did God do that? If it was a cylon trigger, why did Kara know it in her youth? She wasn’t any part Cylon, according to you.
That’s writing of convenience. It’s lazy, undeserving of the build up you gave it, of the accolades you once received, and of your viewer’s intelligence. Deus Ex Machina is the simplest, tackiest “get out of jail free” card in writing, and you used it like carnival tickets, basically saying “God did it” for every one of your plot holes. Angels. Demons. Toy Robot montages. Hackery.
It’s like saying, “Well, we wanted to leave it up to the viewer’s imagination weather or not Frodo made it to Mordor. Or weather Gollum was a hero or a villain.” Garbage. A writer makes decisions and tells a tale. If you intend on being ambiguous to encourage thought or posit the unknowable, then you do it with strong writing, and you tell your viewer that’s what it’s going to be. We didn’t need to see what Roy’s life was going to be like at the end of Close Encounters, we were artfully delivered to a place where our imagination could take over, and every promise made leading up to that point had been fulfilled. We know we’re not meant to understand the end of 2001. We were clearly told that whatever was happening was beyond understanding, but, like David Bowman, we had to know anyway.
You made promise after promise, blatantly advertising, “They have a plan” and “You will know the truth”. But you did either. There was NO plan revealed, and not one single truth resolved in the finale. If you need ANOTHER two hours to wrap things up, unable to fit the narrative into a season of virtually hollow episodes, then all you’re doing is explaining yourself after the reading of the tale is complete. That means the tale itself was incomplete.
There are spans of Galactica that are brilliant. But you brought it home in a mess that left no threads tied, no questions answered (apparently even in your own mind), and little satisfaction. What’s worse, is that in failing to resolve these threads, you’ve damaged the watchability of some previous great hours of television. Going back, I’ll know the prophesies meant NOTHING. The Opera House was no more than Baltar and Six taking a scared child to safety - the same exact place that Athena or Rosslyn themselves would have taken her. And that there was no outcome she affected, other than as a hostage that both sides cared for. It could have been Kara or Apollo or anyone that had been taken, rescued, and then held at gunpoint. Anyone. I’ll know that when Kara returns, there is no payoff. Just a wandering random two-planet confusion. Hours of foreshadowing and build up and prophecy that you DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT to resolve. Just end.
An ending is not a resolution. Galactica may have ended tonight, but you robbed your fans of a resolution.
This guy has some serious holes in his complaints.
First off the God aspect was always part of the grand explanation of things. The ancient scrolls and scriptures were loaded with God/Gods prophecies. You don't have to know about God. Actually no one knows who or what God is beyond their own interpretation. But if you believe in God, angels and religion as I do, then saying God was behind it all makes perfect sense to me. Also there can be no scientific explanations for God or the angels (head-Six, head-Baltar & Kara). Religion is based on faith, not science.
This guy says that Hera wasn't important "She affected nothing" and then contradicts himself by saying Hera was the one that helped Kara realize the final notes of the song her father taught her. This song later became the coordinates of Earth once Kara applied numbers to the notes. Plus it is revealed that Hera is the missing link in the evolution of humans on Earth. Seems like she affected a lot of things.
Of course we don't know what the cylon plan was. We are not supposed to know until the movie "The Plan" is aired. Ron Moore and others from the cast (which will appear in The Plan), have all said that more answers will be revealed in the movie.
I think Adama dealt with the death of his love (Roslyn) quite well and who is to say that he and Lee never make it back together again. Not everyone deals with death the same way. I dealt with the death of my Mom and Dad differently than my siblings. Just because Adama didn't do it a certain way doesn't make him a whimpering goat.
The prophecies... The dying leader died shortly after arriving at Earth. She never got to see the start of the new Earth, none of us did. Survivors walking into the distance is not seeing the start of a new Earth. If we and Roslyn saw how the survivors interacted with the humans and began living together, then that would be seeing the start of Earth. But getting to Earth and then dying hours later... seems to me like that prophecy was fulfilled... Then the Kara Thrace prophecy... The prophecy was NEVER that she would lead them to their death. It was, "You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end." And she did. Both to the cylons (Cavil's forces) and to the people of the fleet. Because of Kara, a rescue mission for Hera was made, which ultimately brought about the end of the colony. Because of Kara, the fleet found Earth and the lifestyles of the survivors in the fleet ended and started anew. The human survivors gave up all they knew and were accustomed to (technology and the space ships) to END that lifestyle and start over again, like Adama said to Romo, "Starting over with a clean slate."
This guys complaint about the Old Earth and New Earth made no sense at all. Yes Kara found her body on the old Earth and her Viper pointed the way there. Yes the song notes brought them to the New Earth, I don't see his point.
His complaint about the song being a cylon trigger and if it were God why would it wake up the final cylons? That's because God is the God to both humans and cylons. That was made clear in Season 3 in the Eye of Jupiter episode.
The ending of the show was written so that not all of the questions would be answered and that the viewers can use their imaginations to come up with their own alternate endings or answers. Not everything in life is black & white, sign-sealed-and-delivered and the BSG ending was meant to be a little open-ended. That's what Ron Moore, many of the writers and actors said it was going to be.
I think despite not all questions being answered, the ending and the answers that were revealed were good enough for me. We were not supposed to find out all of the answers and more is still to come once "The Plan" airs. Just because the show didn't end to your liking, doesn't mean the show didn't end beautifully for those of us that don't need every answer spoon-fed to us. Ron Moore and the writers want the viewer to use their imaginations to draw their own conclusions beyond that which was answerd for us.
I'm not going to refute or defend Jeff on a point by point basis since he's not here to respond, but I'm not surprised by his outrage. I kinda saw this coming after Daybreak part 1. If they were spending precious time on flashbacks for the sake of character development, clearly the priority wasn't on answering all the questions.
That's why I brought up the Prisoner finale last week. Think of all the questions it left totally unanswered. For many, this ruined the entire series. For others, it solidified the series as one of the greatest of all time.
Jeff says:
<< It’s like saying, “Well, we wanted to leave it up to the viewer’s imagination weather or not Frodo made it to Mordor. Or weather Gollum was a hero or a villain.” Garbage. >>
Not for nothing, but is Gollum a hero or a villain? I've read the books and watched the movie a bunch of times, and I think a sound argument can be made for both sides. I'm not saying Jeff doesn't make some solid points, but he seems to have an aversion to gray area.
GaetaIsThe5th said:
<< We were not supposed to find out all of the answers and more is still to come once "The Plan" airs. >>
Like I said in my first post, if you're not wrapping things up in the finale, well then it's not really a finale. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed the finale, but the idea of there even being another two hours of BSG after the finale leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
So I don't think it's a matter of the viewer not being SUPPOSED to find out until later...I just think the writers couldn't fit everything into the last few episodes...which is frustrating when you consider some of the slower, post-mutiny episodes (Deadlocked, I'm looking in your direction).
In hindsight, the time to explore "the plan" was during the beginning of season 3. The New Caprica occupation seemed to represent a sea change in the Cylon agenda, so they should have addressed the old agenda at that point.
I think when all is said and done, this "The Plan" movie will be considered an episode to be viewed prior to the finale.
GaetaIsThe5th said:
<< Also there can be no scientific explanations for God or the angels (head-Six, head-Baltar & Kara). Religion is based on faith, not science. >>
If you're saying that, you might not have gotten the gist of my previous post. I'm not looking for a theological debate here, but I have a scientific explanation for god and angels that works for me.
Funny thought:
In keeping with the old school/new school BSG symmetry, maybe we'll get a "Galactica 2010" movie that takes place on present day earth. Maybe the rebel centurions return from space to confront some of Hera's descendants who can see in-head Baltar & Six.
Shunanimous said... "I just think the writers couldn't fit everything into the last few episodes...which is frustrating when you consider some of the slower, post-mutiny episodes (Deadlocked, I'm looking in your direction)."
That feeling is correct. There was some really dud episodes that could have been better used to explain the storyline better. In one of the many Ron Moore interviews I read during the course of the season, he said that the networks were not allowing him enough time for his story to evolve the way he wanted it to. He originally planned the show to be no less than 5 seasons but the frakking A-holes at SciFi wanted him to wrap up the show in 4 seasons because it was costing too much to make it. And they told him this at the beginning of Season 3 so he didn't have much time to bring his planned storyline to pass. He said that is when he had to re-think and re-write certain storylines. SO YES! A lot of what was filmed and originally planned could not fit into the time slot and season length the network gave Ron Moore. Knowing that I think he did well under the circumstances. He was able to talk the network into the movie "The Plan", once they probably realized that the greatest show they ever had was going to be over this season. By being able to do "The Plan", Ron Moore can have the chance to bring more closure to some of the remaining BSG questions.
DID ANY OF YOU WATCH "THE LAST FRAKKIN' SPECIAL" WHICH AIRED RIGHT BEFORE THE FINAL EPISODE?
In that, if you remember, Ron Moore was telling the story about how when they were beginning to write the final episodes, everyone was struggling with how to bring the story to a close. He said that he was in the shower one morning and he had his breakthrough. He said he went to work and wrote up on the white board in big letters, "IT'S ABOUT THE CHARACTERS, STUPID!" David Eick and the writers all agreed. They had better conclude the story arcs of the characters first because BSG is a character-driven show. A soap-opera in space as it was called by David Eick. So they concentrated the writing on that first and then filled in the holes with as much stuff as they could. Many of the holes they left open would have to wait for "The Plan".
I'm all for a Galactica 2010, but only if Wolfman Jack is in it.
I only agreed with 2 of Jeff's points. One had to do with the prophecies. I know GAETAISTHE5TH had his own interpretation of "The dying leader will not live to see the new land", but to me it's stretching things. By ignoring this prophecy (and maybe others?) it shows me that the writers didn't have a plan. Now that's okay, as long as you change the plan to fit what's already established ("Lost" does this beautifully).
My second beef follows along the same lines. It appears to me that Moore and Co. didn't have an end game when they killed Starbuck. They did it to create an OMG moment at the end of the season... which, again, is fine as long as it's going somewhere. It didn't. Starbuck's story could have continued exactly as it did without her dying. Now, if her death gave us some insight into this mysterious other race/being that is guiding the humans and Cylons, then it would be worth it. Instead, we had a 4th season with a Starbuck imposter and no closure whatsoever with her story arc.
It's funny. I didn't feel this way after seeing the finale. It was only until I read some interviews with Ron Moore. He should have taken a page out of the Patrick McGoohan handbook (creator of the artistic and allegorical Prisoner series) and been mysterious about everything. I didn't need the curtain pulled back. But I guess that's impossible in this day and age.
None of this ruins the series for me. For me, it was always more about the characters and the situations. Nothing they did in the last 3 hours could erase all the great moments Galactica has achieved.
I mostly blame the SciFi network for yanking the rug out from under Ron Moore. He plans an entire show & storyline to fit into a 5 or 6 year season span and then at the start of season 3 he is informed that he has to wrap up the show by the end of the next season. Now he's frakked and has to go in and alter the storyline to fit into 4 seasons instead of 5 or 6. I can see how certain story arcs would not be completed. But Starbuck's? A main character? I agree with the Chairman, why kill Kara? She could have completed her destiny without dying or at least without dying before the end of the show. It might have been better to have her complete her destiny and then die during the escape from the colony or badly injured in the gun battle in the CIC, perhaps she dies after punching in the jump coordinates of Earth. Basically if the show wasn't cut by 2 seasons and decided upon so late in the story arc, perhaps more would have been explained.
13 comments:
I thought it was perfect. There's so much to talk about, but I'll wait until Monday for most of it.
So many cool little touches, like The Chief settling in the Northern Highlands... maybe Ireland. Are the Gaelic people descendants of Galen? Nice touch.
I'm satisfied with the "sort of" explanation of what happened to Starbuck and where did the visions come from. It's probably better we were told about it, rather than having God show up. That never works out well in Sci-Fi (see Star Trek 5).
When I heard that Galactica was going to find Earth (last season), I said it had to be handled one of two ways... either earth is destroyed, or they land during primitive times. They did both. Awesome.
I agree. It was a tremendous finale. I have to watch it again (-ahem- sober) to wrap my head around it properly.
Like I said previously, I was more concerned with getting a conclusion to all the character arcs than getting answers to all the lingering questions, so in that regard I was totally satisfied. GREAT end for Chief Tyroll!
I always said they were going to end up on our earth, I just wasn't sure if it would be the past or the present when they showed up. But I have to admit by "past" I had a semi-civilized pre-Greek post-Samaria time period in mind.
But there is something bothering me: I'd rather they aired the "The Plan" movie during the season than next fall. It's my understanding that it's all been shot already, so why wait to put it on tv? Even knowing it's just a rehashing of previously viewed events from the Cylon perspective, I wish the finale was actually the final time I'd see ANY of those characters. I guess the blame should go to SciFi (sigh..."SyFy") for milking it.
Caprica looks interesting, but I don't know if it will ever outgrow BSG's shadow without BSG's "once more into the breach" approach to violent showdowns.
THAT WAS FRAKING AWESOME!!! I LOVED IT!!! That was an awesome ending and even though I know not all answers were made clear, I still am happy with how this show ended. Sad to see many die like Racetrack & Skulls, Tory, Anders & Roslin but I'm glad Helo didn't die. So much to say and praises to say so here's a quick breakdown:
I loved how they used the older centurions, it made it easier to see the rebel centurions and those of the colony when fighting was taking place.
Admiral Hoshi?! I loved that. In Part 1 last week, Hoshi was cleaning up some coffee off the CIC map table and Col. Tigh says to him, "You'll never make Admiral that way." Nice touch. And Romo as President, a great way to get him back into the storyline.
I loved Galactica ramming into the colony...and I guessed right last week when I said that they will probably jump Galactica while inside the colony.
I'm glad Galactica didn't die during the destruction of the colony. It and Anders died an honorable death...and what a great way for the colony to die...dead Racetrack's Raptor gets hit by a meteor rock and her dead hand falls on her fire button, launching all the nukes she had Skulls arm during the battle.
I loved during the gun fight in the CIC when Cavil knew all was lost, he blew a hole in his head by sticking the gun in his mouth and pulling the trigger.
Athena killing Boomer, Cavil blowing his head off, Adama shooting and kicking over a bloodied Simon in the CIC (in slow motion)... really dark.
I loved the special effects of this episode, actually this whole season had great SFX.
I loved how they tied the earlier scenes of the opera house with Baltar, Caprica Six & Hera and made it out to be the CIC on Galactica, showing the five up above.
I loved how they ended all of the storylines of each of the main characters and now I see how those flashbacks from last week that I complained about, tie everything together.
I'm glad Baltar stayed with the Galactica for the final battle.
I new Boomer would come through, Ron Moore said she would have a big impact in an interview he did at the start of the season. Plus you could see that she grew attached to Hera after realizing that Hera could see the projection of the house Boomer likes to visit when she feels depressed.
And Ron Moore! Did you catch his cameo role as the guy in present day Earth at the newspaper stand reading about the finding of Hera's bones?
WHAT A STORY!!! So the notes of the song were the coordinates of pre-historic Earth. Baltar's speech to Cavil about God, that he sees angels and how a higher power is guiding all of what has been going on all along, was great! So the story seems to be that God has brought them all to pre-historic Earth to settle there and to start over. Sort of fits into the history of how early man would draw about winged gods from the skies on the walls of the pyramids. Gods that were more advanced then them. Lee says to his father that they could bring language and knowledge to the pre-historic humans, while walking along that river on Earth. I didn't think they were going to reveal who God was or how he brought Kara back from the dead. There was no need for that explanation. Like Baltar said to Cavil, God isn't on anyone's side... God is a force of nature.
"You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end." Obviously it was not the end of the humans but that of Cavil and his cylons, just what Adam predicted last week. And I LOVED how they ended her scene with Lee. Just like an angel and it's obvious she was a good angel, just like head-Six and head-Baltar.
I'M REALLY HAPPY AT HOW THIS SHOW ENDED AND I LOOK FORWARD TO "THE PLAN". It really doesn't matter that not all questions were answered. Even "The Plan" may not answer all the remaining questions but I'm sure it will be another masterful writing and producing work of Ron Moore and David Eick. BRAVO!!!
I have mixed feelings about the end. Mostly just minor criticisms. I'm satisfied even though it almost just leaves Kara and her viper as magical, but I can overlook it. The deception of them not getting to Earth and then getting to our Earth for the finale was brilliant. I like how this implies we are descendants of both cylon and human dna as Hera proves to be the missing link.
I like how all the characters on BSG were wrapped up and hopefully "the plan" will wrap up more of the characters on the cylon perspective. I wanted Leoban to have a final story arc, but he sort of just dropped off the wayside.
Much of the Opera House didn't make much sense to me. Why do we even need to have Roslin or Athena chase after Hera when they ultimately have no role in the "Opera House" scene. Why were they even filled with such a sense of dread over 6 and Baltar taking the child, if "god" needed this to happen for their future? I feel like it was jammed in there just to have closure on the Opera House prophecy, but it didn't add anything for me.
Lee and the pigeon also made no sense to me. He's always been ambitious, so to see him just walk away from it, seems odd. He was making decisions up to the end for humankind, I felt he would feel responsible for leading them in the new world rather then to be come a nomad and leave everything to Romo.
I'm ok with how they left the 6 and Baltar angels. We can barely understand the concept of angels and god in real life, we can't expect Ron Moore to give us any concrete answers, though I was disappointed that he leaves Baltar Angel refering to "God" as he doesn't like to be named as a "he". Just a patriarchial note that wasn't necessary on such a revolutionary non-patriarchial show.
Kara coming back from the dead in a brand new viper was obviously orchestrated by God and hence doesn't require any further explanation. Baltar said it many times to his following, the head-Six angel said it to Baltar several times throughout the series and even in our own societies religion it is taught that God cannot be explained or fully understood. You just have to believe that God exists... that's how faith is explained. Like Baltar said to Cavil in the CIC, "you have to take a leap in faith".
I agree that it would have been cool to see a conclusion of Leoben's story arc but I'm sure most of the cylon story arcs will take place in "The Plan".
Lee and the pigeon symbolized the ending of his relationship with Kara. She disappears as he is saying what he wants to do with his life, since her journey was complete, her destiny fulfilled, she left. So I see the pigeon scene as Kara being around and then leaving Lee's life as she flies out the door.
I think Lee not leading the people was a good thing. He needed to start over, "a clean slate" like Adama said. After all the people are so spread out all over the planet that it would be impossible to have a governing body, so I doubt that the office of the President was a functioning entity.
Not everyone will agree but I felt that everything that needed an explanation (except for the cylon story arc) was justifiably done. "SO SAY WE ALL".
< though I was disappointed that he leaves Baltar Angel refering to "God" as he doesn't like to be named as a "he" >
Actually, after rewatching it I'm pretty sure the line is more like "you know it doesn't like that name." So whomever "it" is doesn't like to be called "god."
Anyway, here's a comment I've stolen from another forum that sums up a lot of the prevailing interpretations...
< The reference to "It Doesn't like that name" is referring to Satan. Note the colors that Six and Baltar In Heads are wearing. Black and red, colors that represent darkness and hell. Demons, a.k.a. angels of SATAN, usually temp a singular person in the history of demonology. Angels, represented in the bible, usually appear before many. That might be stretching it a bit. BUT, regardless, if you read in between the lines and look for the clues, they represent demons of Satan. Satan fucks with man's free will. Thus, he always manages to prove that humans are a faulty creation. Satan and his followers in heaven (He was previously Lucifer, second to the throne of God) didn't take to God's love for humans…Kara was an angel sent down to tip the scales a bit because in the end, according to the bible, God always prevails. >
The thing is, the concepts of Satan and Jesus and angels and the trinity and all that fun Judaic-Christian mythology is plagiarized from ancient pagan belief systems, ancient Egyptian religion, and the Epic of Gilgamesh.
So while I get how, say, a Catholic would come away from this finale with a "god's devine plan" theological interpretation,I think it's important to explore the finale's ambiguity.
When the fleet arrives on our Earth, the natives don't even have spoken language yet. Surely these natives may view these newly arrived humans and skinjobs as gods or godlike beings, especially once agriculture, language, law, etc is introduced. Few natives will ever be able to wrap their brains around the idea that these apparent gods are just normal (though comparatively evolved) humans.
Likewise, members of the fleet who have felt the influence of an apparent god would never be able to wrap their brains around a similar idea if their "one true god" were to reveal him or her self as just a human with 150K+ years worth of evolution over the fleet humans.
So while the finale is definitive with regards to saying that there is SOMETHING or SOMEONE manipulating events, it leaves the door open for both an atheistic interpretation and a theological interpretation. The who or what is left up to the viewer. Is it "god", is it an evolved human or hybrid, or is it a machine or computer?
Is the fleet arriving in spaceships any more or less miraculous from the perspective of the natives than Kara Thrace's resurrection is from the perspective of the fleet?
Was the Kara that arrived at the end of season 3 truly an angel, or is "angel" just a concept that the fleet humans employ to quantify something they could not otherwise understand.
There's no correct answer to these questions, but each viewer is free draw their own conclusions. And that's why, aside from one of the finest scifi battles I've ever witnessed, this is one of the best series finales we'll ever see.
Seriously, though... a space battle in an asteroid field spinning into a black hole? That is unbelievable science fiction gravitas.
And, on a personal note, I hated the swift truce that was reached in CIC between Cavil and the fleet. So when it was suddenly shattered by my favorite character snapping the neck of my least favorite character? Perfection.
Shunanimous... That last post was right on the money. Yes many answers to the questions will be different based on peoples beliefs. It doesn't matter if ones interpretation of some of the questions are not the same as others. That's the beauty of this show... draw your own conclusions.
This BSG, was my favorite show of all-time.
I'm guilty of forgetting a lot of the mythology that was laid out over the 4 years. According to a lot of people, Moore and Co. didn't do a good job with continuity. Here's a rather long post by a fan that isn't very complimentary. I have to say that after reading this, I'm a little dissapointed that they didn't do a better job with the explanations. This guy's name is Jeff. Tell me what you think.
(BEGIN JEFF)
I could not have been more disappointed with the cowardly ambiguity of this finale. You built Kara up to be something, but without even your own idea as to what. That’s not writing. That’s daydreaming. You built Hera up to be something, but she turned out to be nothing more than a little girl. She affected nothing. You turned Adama into a simpering goat, who dealt with death on a daily basis but abandoned his son and everyone else because Rosslyn was dying. Apollo had lost a wife. Kara had lost a husband. Adama can’t suck it up and accept death? Hard to take.
The head six and head Baltar were “angels” all along. No scientific explanation even attempted. Not for them. Not for Kara. Not for everyone’s various visions. All the work of some higher power. All along, we’re watching a show about a chaotic God who sometimes wants to do good, sometimes wants to do evil, and only plays with a few selected characters. No further explanation given. There’s a fine line between clever and stupid, but this is just disrespectful to your fans.
You abandoned your prophecies - the dying leader DID live to see the new world. Kara Thrace was NOT the harbinger of anyone’s death.
And her body was found on the old dead Earth. Yet the song led her to the new Earth. Yet the Viper was built to go to the old Earth. Yet the planet you showed when she returned was the new Earth. All it means is that you didn’t know what the heck you were doing. It meant nothing.
The song woke up the cylons, but she heard it too. Her father taught it to her. And you can say it was a “music is universal” meme, but that’s garbage. THAT song was the coordinates to Earth. Hera drew it. Kara typed it. But if it was God, why did it wake up the Cylons? Did God do that? If it was a cylon trigger, why did Kara know it in her youth? She wasn’t any part Cylon, according to you.
That’s writing of convenience. It’s lazy, undeserving of the build up you gave it, of the accolades you once received, and of your viewer’s intelligence. Deus Ex Machina is the simplest, tackiest “get out of jail free” card in writing, and you used it like carnival tickets, basically saying “God did it” for every one of your plot holes. Angels. Demons. Toy Robot montages. Hackery.
It’s like saying, “Well, we wanted to leave it up to the viewer’s imagination weather or not Frodo made it to Mordor. Or weather Gollum was a hero or a villain.” Garbage. A writer makes decisions and tells a tale. If you intend on being ambiguous to encourage thought or posit the unknowable, then you do it with strong writing, and you tell your viewer that’s what it’s going to be. We didn’t need to see what Roy’s life was going to be like at the end of Close Encounters, we were artfully delivered to a place where our imagination could take over, and every promise made leading up to that point had been fulfilled. We know we’re not meant to understand the end of 2001. We were clearly told that whatever was happening was beyond understanding, but, like David Bowman, we had to know anyway.
You made promise after promise, blatantly advertising, “They have a plan” and “You will know the truth”. But you did either. There was NO plan revealed, and not one single truth resolved in the finale. If you need ANOTHER two hours to wrap things up, unable to fit the narrative into a season of virtually hollow episodes, then all you’re doing is explaining yourself after the reading of the tale is complete. That means the tale itself was incomplete.
There are spans of Galactica that are brilliant. But you brought it home in a mess that left no threads tied, no questions answered (apparently even in your own mind), and little satisfaction. What’s worse, is that in failing to resolve these threads, you’ve damaged the watchability of some previous great hours of television. Going back, I’ll know the prophesies meant NOTHING. The Opera House was no more than Baltar and Six taking a scared child to safety - the same exact place that Athena or Rosslyn themselves would have taken her. And that there was no outcome she affected, other than as a hostage that both sides cared for. It could have been Kara or Apollo or anyone that had been taken, rescued, and then held at gunpoint. Anyone. I’ll know that when Kara returns, there is no payoff. Just a wandering random two-planet confusion. Hours of foreshadowing and build up and prophecy that you DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT to resolve. Just end.
An ending is not a resolution. Galactica may have ended tonight, but you robbed your fans of a resolution.
(END JEFF)
This guy has some serious holes in his complaints.
First off the God aspect was always part of the grand explanation of things. The ancient scrolls and scriptures were loaded with God/Gods prophecies. You don't have to know about God. Actually no one knows who or what God is beyond their own interpretation. But if you believe in God, angels and religion as I do, then saying God was behind it all makes perfect sense to me. Also there can be no scientific explanations for God or the angels (head-Six, head-Baltar & Kara). Religion is based on faith, not science.
This guy says that Hera wasn't important "She affected nothing" and then contradicts himself by saying Hera was the one that helped Kara realize the final notes of the song her father taught her. This song later became the coordinates of Earth once Kara applied numbers to the notes. Plus it is revealed that Hera is the missing link in the evolution of humans on Earth. Seems like she affected a lot of things.
Of course we don't know what the cylon plan was. We are not supposed to know until the movie "The Plan" is aired. Ron Moore and others from the cast (which will appear in The Plan), have all said that more answers will be revealed in the movie.
I think Adama dealt with the death of his love (Roslyn) quite well and who is to say that he and Lee never make it back together again. Not everyone deals with death the same way. I dealt with the death of my Mom and Dad differently than my siblings. Just because Adama didn't do it a certain way doesn't make him a whimpering goat.
The prophecies... The dying leader died shortly after arriving at Earth. She never got to see the start of the new Earth, none of us did. Survivors walking into the distance is not seeing the start of a new Earth. If we and Roslyn saw how the survivors interacted with the humans and began living together, then that would be seeing the start of Earth. But getting to Earth and then dying hours later... seems to me like that prophecy was fulfilled... Then the Kara Thrace prophecy... The prophecy was NEVER that she would lead them to their death. It was, "You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace, you will lead them all to their end." And she did. Both to the cylons (Cavil's forces) and to the people of the fleet. Because of Kara, a rescue mission for Hera was made, which ultimately brought about the end of the colony. Because of Kara, the fleet found Earth and the lifestyles of the survivors in the fleet ended and started anew. The human survivors gave up all they knew and were accustomed to (technology and the space ships) to END that lifestyle and start over again, like Adama said to Romo, "Starting over with a clean slate."
This guys complaint about the Old Earth and New Earth made no sense at all. Yes Kara found her body on the old Earth and her Viper pointed the way there. Yes the song notes brought them to the New Earth, I don't see his point.
His complaint about the song being a cylon trigger and if it were God why would it wake up the final cylons? That's because God is the God to both humans and cylons. That was made clear in Season 3 in the Eye of Jupiter episode.
The ending of the show was written so that not all of the questions would be answered and that the viewers can use their imaginations to come up with their own alternate endings or answers. Not everything in life is black & white, sign-sealed-and-delivered and the BSG ending was meant to be a little open-ended. That's what Ron Moore, many of the writers and actors said it was going to be.
I think despite not all questions being answered, the ending and the answers that were revealed were good enough for me. We were not supposed to find out all of the answers and more is still to come once "The Plan" airs. Just because the show didn't end to your liking, doesn't mean the show didn't end beautifully for those of us that don't need every answer spoon-fed to us. Ron Moore and the writers want the viewer to use their imaginations to draw their own conclusions beyond that which was answerd for us.
I'm not going to refute or defend Jeff on a point by point basis since he's not here to respond, but I'm not surprised by his outrage. I kinda saw this coming after Daybreak part 1. If they were spending precious time on flashbacks for the sake of character development, clearly the priority wasn't on answering all the questions.
That's why I brought up the Prisoner finale last week. Think of all the questions it left totally unanswered. For many, this ruined the entire series. For others, it solidified the series as one of the greatest of all time.
Jeff says:
<< It’s like saying, “Well, we wanted to leave it up to the viewer’s imagination weather or not Frodo made it to Mordor. Or weather Gollum was a hero or a villain.” Garbage. >>
Not for nothing, but is Gollum a hero or a villain? I've read the books and watched the movie a bunch of times, and I think a sound argument can be made for both sides. I'm not saying Jeff doesn't make some solid points, but he seems to have an aversion to gray area.
GaetaIsThe5th said:
<< We were not supposed to find out all of the answers and more is still to come once "The Plan" airs. >>
Like I said in my first post, if you're not wrapping things up in the finale, well then it's not really a finale. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed the finale, but the idea of there even being another two hours of BSG after the finale leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
So I don't think it's a matter of the viewer not being SUPPOSED to find out until later...I just think the writers couldn't fit everything into the last few episodes...which is frustrating when you consider some of the slower, post-mutiny episodes (Deadlocked, I'm looking in your direction).
In hindsight, the time to explore "the plan" was during the beginning of season 3. The New Caprica occupation seemed to represent a sea change in the Cylon agenda, so they should have addressed the old agenda at that point.
I think when all is said and done, this "The Plan" movie will be considered an episode to be viewed prior to the finale.
GaetaIsThe5th said:
<< Also there can be no scientific explanations for God or the angels (head-Six, head-Baltar & Kara). Religion is based on faith, not science. >>
If you're saying that, you might not have gotten the gist of my previous post. I'm not looking for a theological debate here, but I have a scientific explanation for god and angels that works for me.
Funny thought:
In keeping with the old school/new school BSG symmetry, maybe we'll get a "Galactica 2010" movie that takes place on present day earth. Maybe the rebel centurions return from space to confront some of Hera's descendants who can see in-head Baltar & Six.
Shunanimous said... "I just think the writers couldn't fit everything into the last few episodes...which is frustrating when you consider some of the slower, post-mutiny episodes (Deadlocked, I'm looking in your direction)."
That feeling is correct. There was some really dud episodes that could have been better used to explain the storyline better. In one of the many Ron Moore interviews I read during the course of the season, he said that the networks were not allowing him enough time for his story to evolve the way he wanted it to. He originally planned the show to be no less than 5 seasons but the frakking A-holes at SciFi wanted him to wrap up the show in 4 seasons because it was costing too much to make it. And they told him this at the beginning of Season 3 so he didn't have much time to bring his planned storyline to pass. He said that is when he had to re-think and re-write certain storylines. SO YES! A lot of what was filmed and originally planned could not fit into the time slot and season length the network gave Ron Moore. Knowing that I think he did well under the circumstances. He was able to talk the network into the movie "The Plan", once they probably realized that the greatest show they ever had was going to be over this season. By being able to do "The Plan", Ron Moore can have the chance to bring more closure to some of the remaining BSG questions.
DID ANY OF YOU WATCH "THE LAST FRAKKIN' SPECIAL" WHICH AIRED RIGHT BEFORE THE FINAL EPISODE?
In that, if you remember, Ron Moore was telling the story about how when they were beginning to write the final episodes, everyone was struggling with how to bring the story to a close. He said that he was in the shower one morning and he had his breakthrough. He said he went to work and wrote up on the white board in big letters, "IT'S ABOUT THE CHARACTERS, STUPID!" David Eick and the writers all agreed. They had better conclude the story arcs of the characters first because BSG is a character-driven show. A soap-opera in space as it was called by David Eick. So they concentrated the writing on that first and then filled in the holes with as much stuff as they could. Many of the holes they left open would have to wait for "The Plan".
I'm all for a Galactica 2010, but only if Wolfman Jack is in it.
I only agreed with 2 of Jeff's points. One had to do with the prophecies. I know GAETAISTHE5TH had his own interpretation of "The dying leader will not live to see the new land", but to me it's stretching things. By ignoring this prophecy (and maybe others?) it shows me that the writers didn't have a plan. Now that's okay, as long as you change the plan to fit what's already established ("Lost" does this beautifully).
My second beef follows along the same lines. It appears to me that Moore and Co. didn't have an end game when they killed Starbuck. They did it to create an OMG moment at the end of the season... which, again, is fine as long as it's going somewhere. It didn't. Starbuck's story could have continued exactly as it did without her dying. Now, if her death gave us some insight into this mysterious other race/being that is guiding the humans and Cylons, then it would be worth it. Instead, we had a 4th season with a Starbuck imposter and no closure whatsoever with her story arc.
It's funny. I didn't feel this way after seeing the finale. It was only until I read some interviews with Ron Moore. He should have taken a page out of the Patrick McGoohan handbook (creator of the artistic and allegorical Prisoner series) and been mysterious about everything. I didn't need the curtain pulled back. But I guess that's impossible in this day and age.
None of this ruins the series for me. For me, it was always more about the characters and the situations. Nothing they did in the last 3 hours could erase all the great moments Galactica has achieved.
I mostly blame the SciFi network for yanking the rug out from under Ron Moore. He plans an entire show & storyline to fit into a 5 or 6 year season span and then at the start of season 3 he is informed that he has to wrap up the show by the end of the next season. Now he's frakked and has to go in and alter the storyline to fit into 4 seasons instead of 5 or 6. I can see how certain story arcs would not be completed. But Starbuck's? A main character? I agree with the Chairman, why kill Kara? She could have completed her destiny without dying or at least without dying before the end of the show. It might have been better to have her complete her destiny and then die during the escape from the colony or badly injured in the gun battle in the CIC, perhaps she dies after punching in the jump coordinates of Earth. Basically if the show wasn't cut by 2 seasons and decided upon so late in the story arc, perhaps more would have been explained.
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